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SubjectRe: [RFC PATCH 00/11] bpf, trace, dtrace: DTrace BPF program type implementation and sample use
On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 03:25:25PM +0000, Chris Mason wrote:
>
> I'm being pretty liberal with chopping down quoted material to help
> emphasize a particular opinion about how to bootstrap existing
> out-of-tree projects into the kernel. My goal here is to talk more
> about the process and less about the technical details, so please
> forgive me if I've ignored or changed the technical meaning of anything
> below.
>
> On 30 May 2019, at 12:15, Kris Van Hees wrote:
>
> > On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 01:28:44PM -0700, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> >
> > ... I believe that the discussion that has been going on in other
> > emails has shown that while introducing a program type that provides a
> > generic (abstracted) context is a different approach from what has
> > been done
> > so far, it is a new use case that provides for additional ways in
> > which BPF
> > can be used.
> >
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >
> > Yes and no. It depends on what you are trying to do with the BPF
> > program that
> > is attached to the different events. From a tracing perspective,
> > providing a
> > single BPF program with an abstract context would ...
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >
> > In this model kprobe/ksys_write and
> > tracepoint/syscalls/sys_enter_write are
> > equivalent for most tracing purposes ...
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >
> > I agree with what you are saying but I am presenting an additional use
> > case
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >>
> >> All that aside the kernel support for shared libraries is an awesome
> >> feature to have and a bunch of folks want to see it happen, but
> >> it's not a blocker for 'dtrace to bpf' user space work.
> >> libbpf can be taught to do this 'pseudo shared library' feature
> >> while 'dtrace to bpf' side doesn't need to do anything special.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> This thread intermixes some abstract conceptual changes with smaller
> technical improvements, and in general it follows a familiar pattern
> other out-of-tree projects have hit while trying to adapt the kernel to
> their existing code. Just from this one email, I quoted the abstract
> models with use cases etc, and this is often where the discussions side
> track into less productive areas.
>
> >
> > So you are basically saying that I should redesign DTrace?
>
> In your place, I would have removed features and adapted dtrace as much
> as possible to require the absolute minimum of kernel patches, or even
> better, no patches at all. I'd document all of the features that worked
> as expected, and underline anything either missing or suboptimal that
> needed additional kernel changes. Then I'd focus on expanding the
> community of people using dtrace against the mainline kernel, and work
> through the series features and improvements one by one upstream over
> time.

Well, that is actually what I am doing in the sense that the proposed patches
are quite minimal and lie at the core of the style of tracing that we need to
support. So I definitely agree with your statement. The code I posted
implements a minimal set of features (hardly any at all), although as Peter
pointed out, some more can be stripped from it and I have done that already
in a revision of the patchset I was preparing.

> Your current approach relies on an all-or-nothing landing of patches
> upstream, and this consistently leads to conflict every time a project
> tries it. A more incremental approach will require bigger changes on
> the dtrace application side, but over time it'll be much easier to
> justify your kernel changes. You won't have to talk in abstract models,
> and you'll have many more concrete examples of people asking for dtrace
> features against mainline. Most importantly, you'll make dtrace
> available on more kernels than just the absolute latest mainline, and
> removing dependencies makes the project much easier for new users to
> try.

I am not sure where I gave the impression that my approach relies on an
all-or-nothing landing of patches. My intent (and the content of the patches
reflects that I think) was to work from a minimal base and build on that,
adding things as needed. Granted, it depends on a rather crucial feature in
the design that apparently should be avoided for now as well, and I can
definitely work on avoiding that for now. But I hope that it is clear from
the patch set I posted that an incremental approach is indeed what I intend
to do.

Thank you for putting it in clear terms and explaining patfalls that have
be observed in the past with projects. I will proceed with an even more
minimalist approach.

To that end, could you advice on who patches should be Cc'd to to have the
first minimal code submitted to a tools/dtrace directory in the kernel tree?

Kris

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