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    SubjectRe: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] [ATTEND] How to act on LKML (was: [ 00/19] 3.10.1-stable review)
    On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 10:14:49AM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
    > On Tue, 2013-07-16 at 14:18 -0700, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
    > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 10:27:09PM +0400, James Bottomley wrote:
    > > > On Mon, 2013-07-15 at 15:38 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
    > > > > On Mon, Jul 15, 2013 at 3:08 PM, Steven Rostedt <rostedt@goodmis.org> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Can we please make this into a Kernel Summit discussion. I highly doubt
    > > > > > we would solve anything, but it certainly would be a fun segment to
    > > > > > watch :-)
    > > > >
    > > > > I think we should, because I think it's the kind of thing we really
    > > > > need at the KS - talking about "process".
    > > >
    > > > Can you formulate the process issue to discuss? I've heard "Linus needs
    > > > to yell less at people" and "the mailing lists need to be more
    > > > 'professional'" neither of which seems to identify an actual process.
    > > > Are we perhaps discussing guidelines for giving feedback on patches?
    > > >
    > > > > At the same time, I really don't know what the format would possibly
    > > > > be like for it to really work as a reasonable discussion. And I think
    > > > > that is important, because this kind of subject is *not* likely
    > > > > possible in the traditional "people sit around tables and maybe
    > > > > somebody has a few slides" format.
    > > >
    > > > > A small panel discussion with a few people (fiveish?) that have very
    > > > > different viewpoints, along with baskets of rotten fruit set out on
    > > > > the tables? That could be fun. And I'm serious, although we might want
    > > > > to limit the size of the fruit to smaller berries ;)
    > > >
    > > > How about Lychees? They're prickly on the outside, very wet on the
    > > > inside and have large stones ...
    > >
    > > They taste good, too.
    > >
    > > > But what are the viewpoints? "maintainers need to yell more"?
    > > > "maintainers need to yell less"? I don't think I agree with either.
    > > > I'm perfectly happy to run linux-scsi along reasonable standards of
    > > > civility and try to keep the debates technical, but that's far easier to
    > > > do on a low traffic list; obviously, I realise that style of argument
    > > > doesn't suit everyone, so it's not a standard of behaviour I'd like to
    > > > see universally imposed. In fact, I've got to say that I wouldn't like
    > > > to see *any* behaviour standard imposed ... they're all basically cover
    > > > for power plays (or soon get abused as power plays); the only real way
    > > > to display leadership on behaviour standards is by example not by fiat.
    > >
    > > OK, I am stupid enough to take a stab at this...
    > >
    > > 1. Does the Linux kernel community's health depend on the occasional
    > > rant? [My guess is that we simply have no way of knowing.
    > > That said, I would be interested in hearing specific examples
    > > of open-source communities that are as doing as well as is the
    > > Linux community and that live within stricter social mores.
    > > Cue arguments about exactly what "doing well" means...]
    > >
    > > 2. Could the Linux kernel community's health be improved by banning
    > > the occasional rant? [Again, I don't believe that we have any
    > > way of knowing.]
    > >
    > > 3. Is there some reasonable way to accommodate a wide range of
    > > styles of interaction within the Linux community? [I hope that
    > > the answer is "yes", but it probably becomes impossible if you
    > > add the qualifier "that everyone is happy with".]
    > >
    > > 4. If there is some reasonable way to accommodate a wide range
    > > of styles of interaction within the Linux community, can this
    > > be done globally, or does this require that people who prefer a
    > > specific style confine themselves to portions of the community
    > > that practice that specific style? [As I grow older, I become
    > > increasingly pessimistic about the possibility of keeping everyone
    > > happy, but who knows?]
    > >
    > > For whatever it is worth...
    >
    > Well, you have friends in acadaemia, perhaps there might be an
    > interesting study here. If you consider the management style of the
    > kernel, does it enable contributions from a broader range of people than
    > would be tolerated in industry? Industry has a problem with what
    > managers like to call "brilliant jerks" people who have a well
    > recognised talent but who cannot be controlled (at least by the
    > aforementioned managers) and become corrosive to the team (do we
    > actually manage to make use of these people in the kernel?). They also
    > tend to have a problem at the bottom end: those who are just about OK at
    > their jobs; certainly not bad enough to be fired but whom they'd dearly
    > love to replace with better workers (does the attitude in the kernel
    > tend to discourage these types?)
    >
    > It's probably less relevant to the discussion at hand, but I'd be
    > curious to see the results. Assuming they say that we do have a higher
    > output per developer, the next study could investigate why this is ...

    I do like your problem statement better than mine, but I must add that
    I have come across people who are much more "outspoken" in proprietary
    projects than I have seen on LKML. Sorry, no quotes via email, even
    private email. Face-to-face verbal only for that level of nastiness.

    Most of my friends in academia are in computer science, but I have come
    across a few business-school types. Is this something that LF would be
    interested in allowing me to place its name behind?

    Also, such a study would require some interaction with the researchers,
    should any be interested. Would people be willing to be interviewed,
    either by phone or email? Or would such a study need to content itself
    with analysis of email archives and online news sites?

    Thanx, Paul



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