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    SubjectRe: [PATCH] KVM: Add wrapper script around QEMU to test kernels
    On Mon, Nov 07, 2011 at 03:12:28PM +0200, Pekka Enberg wrote:
    > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Ted Ts'o <> wrote:
    > > I don't think perf should be used as a precendent that now argues that
    > > any new kernel utility should be moved into the kernel sources.  Does
    > > it make sense to move all of mount, fsck, login, etc., into the kernel
    > > sources?  There are far more kernel tools outside of the kernel
    > > sources than inside the kernel sources.


    > I don't know if it makes sense to merge the tools you've mentioned above.
    > My gut feeling is that it's probably not reasonable - there's already a
    > community working on it with their own development process and coding
    > style. I don't think there's a simple answer to this but I don't agree with
    > your rather extreme position that all userspace tools should be kept out
    > of the kernel tree.

    Ted's position is not extreme. He follows the simple and exactly defined
    border between userspace and kernel. The native userspace feature is
    variability and substitutability.

    The util-linux package is really nice example:

    - you don't have to use it, you can use busybox

    - we have currently three implementation of login(1), many getty
    implementations, etc.

    - it's normal that people use the latest util-linux releases with very
    old kernels (in year 2008 I had report from person with kernel 2.4:-)

    - userspace is very often about portability -- it's crazy, but some people
    use some utils from util-linux on Hurd, Solaris and BSD (including very
    Linux specific things like mkswap and hwclock)

    Anyway, I agree that small one-man projects are ineffective for
    important system tools -- it's usually better to merge things into
    large projects with reliable infrastructure and alive community (here
    I agree with Lennart's idea to have 3-5 projects for whole low-level


    Karel Zak <>
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