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    SubjectRe: [PATCH 0/3] refcounting improvements in sysfs.
    Hello, Neil.

    On 03/26/2010 03:02 PM, Neil Brown wrote:
    >> Nice article. In general, yeap, I agree it would be nice to have a
    >> working reference count abstraction. However, kref along with kobject
    >> is a good example of obscurity by abstraction anti pattern. :-)
    > I'm not at all sure that opinion would be universal....
    > refcounting is something that it is quite easy to get wrong. There are
    > several slightly different models for refcounting and if you don't have a
    > clear understanding of the different use cases it is easy to get confused
    > about exactly what model is being used and so use a refcount wrongly.
    > kref certainly doesn't cover all models for refcounting but it does cover one
    > fairly common one very well and I think that it's use bring clarity rather
    > than obscurity.
    > Of course if it is used for a refcount which should really follow a different
    > model then that can cause confusion...

    I don't know. After spending some time with k* and device model, I
    grew a pretty strong dislike for abstractions without clear functional
    necessities. kref being much simpler than kobject, the abuse is much
    less severe but there have been kref misuses (in kobject and SCSI
    midlayer) which could have been avoided or at least easily located if
    they simply had used atomic_t instead of dreaming up some mystical
    properties of kref.

    >> kobject API incorrectly suggests that it deals with the last put
    >> problem. There still are large number of code paths which do the
    >> following,
    >> if (!(kob = kobject_get(kobj)))
    >> return;
    > kobject_get *always* returns exactly the argument that was passed to it.
    > (kref_get doesn't have a return value.)
    > I don't see how the code above has any bearing on the last-put
    > problem, which I think kref and thus kobject do handle exactly
    > correctly.

    Oh, I should have been more explicit. It's not directly related to
    kref but just something that always comes to my mind when thinking
    about k* abstractions. The above bogus condition checks used to be
    used quite widely. The programmer for some reason believed the last
    kobject_put() somehow will magically make future kobject_get()s return
    NULL, which of course doesn't make any sense but hey the
    implementation is buried kilometers deep, the API and other usages
    seem to suggest that and it's easy to imagine something up when you're

    As an another example, please take a look at the kref API.

    int kref_put(struct kref *kref, void (*release) (struct kref *kref));

    The function takes @release callback but under which context is it
    called? If you look at the source code, it's called in-line which
    isn't clear from the API at all (why the hell take a callback if
    you're gonna call it in-line?) and there have been *several* subtle
    bugs which could have been avoided or at least would have been caught
    much easier if it were not for that meaningless separate release
    callback. It's just too easy to forget about the executing context
    when people write and review stuff over function boundaries.

    void put_something(something)
    if (kref_put(&something->kref))
    do something which might dead lock;

    is way easier to avoid bugs and review than

    void really_kill_something(struct kref *kref)
    struct my_something *something = container_of(...);

    do something which might dead lock;

    void put_something(something)

    This is *way* worse than atomic_t not better and the confusion is
    caused exactly by superflous abstraction which leads the users of the
    API to imagine some non-existing function of the abstraction and
    hinders the flow of review.

    >> I believe (or at least hope) the actual problem cases are mostly fixed
    >> now but there still are a lot of misconceptions around how stuff built
    >> on kref/kobject is synchronized and they sometimes lead to race
    >> conditions buried deep under several layers of abstractions and it
    >> becomes very hard to see those race conditions when they are buried
    >> deep.
    > I agree that there probably misconceptions about how kref works and they are
    > probably based on a lack of appreciation of the subtle differences in
    > flavours of refcounts. Hence my desire to create and document different
    > k*ref types which clarify the different use cases.

    Oh, I'm not objecting to cleaning up how reference counts are done
    per-se but *PLEASE* refrain from introducing abstractions for
    abstraction's sake. The k* stuff, device model and sysfs already
    walked down that road and got burned badly.

    > BTW I'd be perfectly happy if the first patch was taken and
    > subsequent ones not. I think they are a good idea, but I'm happy to
    > forgo them (for now:-).

    If it can be done in a way that it doesn't substitute pure logical
    complexity with one which involves memory ordering issues, which is
    almost always way worse, I have no objection at all.



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