[lkml]   [2009]   [Mar]   [27]   [last100]   RSS Feed
Views: [wrap][no wrap]   [headers]  [forward] 
Messages in this thread
    SubjectRe: Linux 2.6.29
    On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 11:05:58AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
    > Alan. Repeat after me: "fsync()+close() is basically useless for any app
    > that expects user interaction under load".
    > That's a FACT, not an opinion.

    This is a fact for ext3 with data=ordered mode. Which is the default
    and dominant filesystem today, yes. But it's not true for most other
    filesystems. Hopefully at some point we will migrate people off of
    ext3 to something better. Ext4 is available today, and is much better
    at this than ext4. In the long run, btrfs will be better yet. The
    issue then is how do we transition people away from making assumptions
    that were essentially only true for ext3's data=ordered mode. Ext4,
    btrfs, XFS, all will have the property that if you fsync() a small
    file, it will be fast, and it won't inflict major delays for other
    programs running on the same system.

    You've said for a long that that ext3 is really bad in that it
    inflicts this --- I agree with you. People should use other
    filesystems which are better. This includes ext4, which is completely
    format compatible with ext3. They don't even have to switch on
    extents support to get better behaviour. Just mounting an ext3
    filesystem with ext4 will result in better behaviour.

    So maybe we can't tell application writers, *today*, that they should
    use fsync(). But in the future, we should be able to tell them that.
    Or maybe we can tell them that if they want, they can use some new
    interface, such as a proposed fbarrier() that will do the right thing
    (including perhaps being a no-op on ext3) no matter what the
    filesystem might be.

    I do believe that the last thing we should do is tell people that
    because of the characteristics of ext3s, which you yourself have said
    sucks, and which we've largely fixed for ext4, and which isn't a
    problem with other filesystems, including some that may likely replace
    ext3 *and* ext4, that we should give people advice that will lock
    applications into doing some very bad things for the indefinite

    And I'm not blaming userspace; this is at least as much, if not
    entirely, ext3's fault. What that means is we need to work on a way
    of providing a transition path back to a better place for the overall
    system, which includes both the kernel and userspace application
    libraries, such as those found in GNOME, KDE, et. al.

    > So look for a middle ground. Not this crazy militant "user apps must do
    > fsync()" crap. Because that is simply not a realistic scenario.

    Agreed, we need a middle ground. We need a transition path that
    recognizes that ext3 won't be the dominant filesystem for Linux in
    perpetuity, and that ext3's data=ordered semantics will someday no
    longer be a major factor in application design. fbarrier() semantics
    might be one approach; there may be others. It's something we need to
    figure out.

    - Ted

     \ /
      Last update: 2009-03-27 20:07    [W:0.023 / U:7.244 seconds]
    ©2003-2017 Jasper Spaans. hosted at Digital OceanAdvertise on this site