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    SubjectRe: Linux 2.6.29
    On Wed, Mar 25 2009, Ric Wheeler wrote:
    > Jens Axboe wrote:
    >> On Wed, Mar 25 2009, Jeff Garzik wrote:
    >>> Jens Axboe wrote:
    >>>> On Tue, Mar 24 2009, Jeff Garzik wrote:
    >>>>> Linus Torvalds wrote:
    >>>>>> But I really don't understand filesystem people who think that
    >>>>>> "fsck" is the important part, regardless of whether the data is
    >>>>>> valid or not. That's just stupid and _obviously_ bogus.
    >>>>> I think I can understand that point of view, at least:
    >>>>> More customers complain about hours-long fsck times than they do
    >>>>> about silent data corruption of non-fsync'd files.
    >>>>>> The point is, if you write your metadata earlier (say, every 5
    >>>>>> sec) and the real data later (say, every 30 sec), you're
    >>>>>> actually MORE LIKELY to see corrupt files than if you try to
    >>>>>> write them together.
    >>>>>> And if you write your data _first_, you're never going to see
    >>>>>> corruption at all.
    >>>>> Amen.
    >>>>> And, personal filesystem pet peeve: please encourage proper
    >>>>> FLUSH CACHE use to give users the data guarantees they deserve.
    >>>>> Linux's sync(2) and fsync(2) (and fdatasync, etc.) should poke
    >>>>> the block layer to guarantee a media write.
    >>>> fsync already does that, at least if you have barriers enabled on your
    >>>> drive.
    >>> Erm, no, you don't enable barriers on your drive, they are not a
    >>> hardware feature. You enable barriers via your filesystem.
    >> Thanks for the lesson Jeff, I'm obviously not aware how that stuff
    >> works...
    >>> Stating "fsync already does that" borders on false, because that assumes
    >>> (a) the user has a fs that supports barriers
    >>> (b) the user is actually aware of a 'barriers' mount option and what
    >>> it means
    >>> (c) the user has turned on an option normally defaulted to off.
    >>> Or in other words, it pretty much never happens.
    >> That is true, except if you use xfs/ext4. And this discussion is fine,
    >> as was the one a few months back that got ext4 to enable barriers by
    >> default. If I had submitted patches to do that back in 2001/2 when the
    >> barrier stuff was written, I would have been shot for introducing such a
    >> slow down. After people found out that it just wasn't something silly,
    >> then you have a way to enable it.
    >> I'd still wager that most people would rather have a 'good enough
    >> fsync' on their desktops than incur the penalty of barriers or write
    >> through caching. I know I do.
    >>> Furthermore, a blatantly obvious place to flush data to media --
    >>> fsync(2), fdatasync(2) and sync_file_range(2) -- should cause the
    >>> block layer to issue a FLUSH CACHE for __any__ filesystem. But that
    >>> doesn't happen either.
    >>> So, no, for 95% of Linux users, fsync does _not_ already do that. If
    >>> you are lucky enough to use XFS or ext4, you're covered. That's it.
    >> The point is that you need to expose this choice somewhere, and that
    >> 'somewhere' isn't manually editing fstab and enabling barriers or
    >> fsync-for-real. And it should be easier.
    >> Another problem is that FLUSH_CACHE sucks. Really. And not just on
    >> ext3/ordered, generally. Write a 50 byte file, fsync, flush cache and
    >> wit for the world to finish. Pretty hard to teach people to use a nicer
    >> fdatasync(), when the majority of the cost now becomes flushing the
    >> cache of that 1TB drive you happen to have 8 partitions on. Good luck
    >> with that.
    > And, as I am sure that you do know, to add insult to injury, FLUSH_CACHE
    > is per device (not file system).
    > When you issue an fsync() on a disk with multiple partitions, you will
    > flush the data for all of its partitions from the write cache....

    Exactly, that's what my (vague) 8 partition reference was for :-)
    A range flush would be so much more palatable.

    Jens Axboe

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      Last update: 2009-03-25 21:01    [W:0.027 / U:0.600 seconds]
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