lkml.org 
[lkml]   [2007]   [Feb]   [22]   [last100]   RSS Feed
Views: [wrap][no wrap]   [headers]  [forward] 
 
Messages in this thread
/
Date
From
SubjectRe: [patch 00/13] Syslets, "Threadlets", generic AIO support, v3

* Ulrich Drepper <drepper@redhat.com> wrote:

> Ingo Molnar wrote:
> > in terms of AIO, the best queueing model is i think what the kernel uses
> > internally: freely ordered, with barrier support.
>
> Speaking of AIO, how do you imagine lio_listio is implemented? If
> there is no asynchronous syscall it would mean creating a threadlet
> for each request but this means either waiting or creating
> several/many threads.

my current thinking is that special-purpose (non-programmable, static)
APIs like aio_*() and lio_*(), where every last cycle of performance
matters, should be implemented using syslets - even if it is quite
tricky to write syslets (which they no doubt are - just compare the size
of syslet-test.c to threadlet-test.c). So i'd move syslets into the same
category as raw syscalls: pieces of the raw infrastructure between the
kernel and glibc, not an exposed API to apps. [and even if we keep them
in that category they still need quite a bit of API work, to clean up
the 32/64-bit issues, etc.]

The size of the async thread pool can be kept in check either from
user-space (by starting to queue up requests after a certain point of
saturation without submitting them) or from kernel-space which involves
waiting (the latter was present in v2 but i temporarily removed it from
v3). "You have to wait" is the eventual final answer in every
well-behaved queueing system anyway.

How things work out with a large number of outstanding threads in real
apps is still an open question (until someone tries it) but i'm
cautiously optimistic: in my own (FIO based) measurements syslets beat
the native KAIO interfaces both in the cached and in the non-cached [==
many threads] case. I did not expect the latter at all: the non-cached
syslet codepath is not optimized at all yet, so i expected it to have
(much) higher CPU overhead than KAIO.

This means that KAIO is in worse shape than i thought - there's just way
too much context KAIO has to build up to submit parallel IO contexts.
Many years of optimizations went into KAIO already, so it's probably at
its outer edge of performance capabilities. Furthermore, what KAIO has
to compete against in the syslet case are the synchronous syscalls
turned async, and more than a decade of optimizations went into all the
synchronous syscalls. Plus the 'threading overhead of syslets' really
boils down to 'scheduling overhead' in the end - and we can do over a
million context-switches a second, per CPU. What killed user-space
thread-based AIO performance many moons ago wasnt really the threading
concept itself or scheduling overhead, it was the (then) fragile
threading implementation of Linux, combined with the resulting
signal-based AIO code. Catching and handling a single signal is more
expensive than a context-switch - and signals have legacies attached to
them that make them hard to scale within the kernel. Plus with syslets
the 'threading overhead' is optional, it only happens when it has to.

Plus there's the fundamental killer that KAIO is a /lot/ harder to
implement (and to maintain) on the kernel side: it has to be implemented
for every IO discipline, and even for the IO disciplines it supports at
the moment, it is not truly asynchronous for things like metadata
blocking or VFS blocking. To handle things like metadata blocking it has
to resort to non-statemachine techniques like retries - which are bad
for performance.

Syslets/threadlets on the other hand, once the core is implemented, have
near zero ongoing maintainance cost (compared to KAIO pushed into every
IO subsystem) and cover all IO disciplines and API variants immediately,
and they are as perfectly asynchronous as it gets.

So all in one, i used to think that AIO state-machines have a long-term
place within the kernel, but with syslets i think i've proven myself
embarrasingly wrong =B-)

Ingo
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/

\
 
 \ /
  Last update: 2007-02-22 08:49    [from the cache]
©2003-2014 Jasper Spaans. hosted at Digital Ocean