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    SubjectRe: Gaming Interface
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    On Tue, 2007-01-09 at 08:22 +0100, Dirk wrote:
    > Kasper Sandberg wrote:
    > > On Mon, 2007-01-08 at 16:36 +0100, Dirk wrote:
    > >> Helge Hafting wrote:
    > >>> Dirk wrote:
    > >>>> Jay Vaughan wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> At 13:13 +0100 8/1/07, Dirk wrote:
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>>> Trent Waddington wrote:
    > >>>>>> > Call me crazy, but game manufacturers want directx right? You aint
    > >>>>>> > running that in the kernel.
    > >>>>>> They want something like DirectX that changes it's API less frequent
    > >>>>>> than DirectX and that compiles as a module because you don't want to
    > >>>>>> run
    > >>>>>> it in the kernel.
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>>>
    > >>>>> Whats wrong with just using SDL/OpenGL? Thousands of games are made
    > >>>>> with SDL/OpenGL, and there are realms of Linux usage where this works
    > >>>>> just fine, especially for games (GP2X, etc). In case you didn't notice,
    > >>>>> plenty of pro Game Developers use SDL/OpenGL just fine for their needs,
    > >>>>> and get the job done without grumbling and groaning about needing to
    > >>>>> have their hands held through the process.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> But I don't see top titles ported to SDL/OpenGL.
    > >>> Tough luck then - openGL is the standard gaming interface on linux,
    > >>> well for the 3D graphichs part at least. You already have this,
    > >>> so having a "standard" clearly isn't enough then.
    > >>>
    > >>> More titles will be ported to linux when linux becomes more
    > >>> popular as a home platform. It is that simple. And then it will
    > >>> happen no matter what the interface will be. Although I
    > >>> believe it will still be opengl - opengl is nice and don't need
    > >>> to change. Also, the fact that it isn't in the _kernel_ doesn't
    > >>> matter at all. It is in the standard distributions - that is what matters.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>> You must take into
    > >>>> account with what kind of people you're dealing with. It's not the pro
    > >>>> Game Develpers who make decisions. It's the people who completely rely
    > >>>> on words who ake decisions. So, if you tell them that there will be a
    > >>>> _official_ API on Kernel level which will be available on all 300+ Linux
    > >>>> distributions they will understand that they're dealing with something
    > >>>> they can rely on.
    > >>> Wrong. This kind of people worry about market share and so
    > >>> they decide on windows games for that reason alone.
    > >>>> They don't know SDL. And most of these characters
    > >>>> think OpenGL is dead.
    > >>> It is wrong - it might be dead _on windows_ because
    > >>> windows have directx as well as a "less useful" opengl.
    > >>>> That's arrogant, I know. They choice about what
    > >>>> stuff they care is made by big words and statements, not by their
    > >>>> competence.
    > >>>>
    > >>> Then you won't get support here - nobody cares about
    > >>> "big words" here.
    > >>>>> I fail to see the reason this requirement has to be a 'kernel'
    > >>>>> interface, other than pure sheer laziness and inability to grok on the
    > >>>>> part of the so-called professional Game Developers.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> That's exactly what I'm talking about. They're lazy and dumb. So they
    > >>>> need something where they can say: "Hey, that is one interface that
    > >>>> doesn't change every couple of month. I can try to wrap my lazy brain
    > >>>> around it with a good feeling."
    > >>>>
    > >>> 1. Linux don't support the lazy and dumb. Won't happen.
    > >>> 2. Even the lazy and dumb can use nice standardized unchanging
    > >>> interfaces - provided by a library rather than the kernel. It is not
    > >>> harder to do in any way.
    > >>>
    > >>>>> Gaming is only
    > >>>>> *one* kind of application for the Linux kernel - shall we burden the
    > >>>>> kernel with everything everyone wants just because people fail to
    > >>>>> understand the proper way to assemble a Linux-based kit for their
    > >>>>> specific application needs? (Hint: work with the distro builders.)
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> Yes. Exactly. There is already code for very specific tasks in the
    > >>>> kernel. A module that acts as a
    > >>>> i-will-never-change-my-api-and-will-be-available-on-EVERY-linux-because
    > >>>> i'm-part-of-the-kernel wrapper for video, sound and events dedicated to
    > >>>> the gaming folks wouldn't hurt.
    > >>>>
    > >>> Such a thing is nice - but it don't need to be in the kernel. Try
    > >>> to understand that! An interface set in stone can be provided
    > >>> by a standard library that all distros pick up. (No distro will
    > >>> skip an important library, that way they get behind the other distros.)
    > >>> The advantage of this is that such a library can keep the
    > >>> game programmers interface constant even when the kernel interfaces
    > >>> are mercilessly changed. And yes - they _will_ change. Everytime
    > >>> that happens, people here laugh at commercial actors getting
    > >>> in trouble. (Example - the tradition of ruthlessly breaking the binary-only
    > >>> modules from ati, nvidia, vmware...)
    > >>>
    > >>>>> Just my .2c, but anyone suggesting that API's be crowbar'ed into the
    > >>>>> kernel "just to make it easier to get what you want from a single
    > >>>>> source" is probably not as familiar with the underlying technology, nor
    > >>>>> the reasons for its structured organization, as they ought to be before
    > >>>>> making such suggestions ..
    > >>>>>
    > >>>> I'm just guessing that the real problem of Linux gaming is that
    > >>>> developers must get it that there is an official way to port games to
    > >>>> linux w/o toolongdidntread, ever changing API's or as many different
    > >>>> problems as there are distributions.
    > >>>>
    > >>> Sure, and that official way is to use support libraries. Such
    > >>> as opengl for 3D, and one of the well-supported sound libraries
    > >>> for sound, and so on.
    > >>>> Porting games to Linux has to be _very_ _easy_.
    > >>>>
    > >>> Depends on what you port them from!
    > >>> People even write free games for linux, so it can't be that hard.
    > >>> Professional game vendors even get paid, so they shouldn't
    > >>> have any problem at all then.
    > >>>
    > >>>> I have this idea to put such standard API into a kernel (module) because
    > >>>> the kernel, unlike SDL and OpenGL, is available on _every_ Linux
    > >>>> distribution.
    > >>>>
    > >>> Every _module_ isn't available on every distribution either,
    > >>> so that's bad thinking. I think you will find the existing
    > >>> gaming libraries on any distro aiming at "generic" or "home"
    > >>> usage. Specialist distros aiming at "servers", "firewalls",
    > >>> or "small embedded devices" will _not_ have opengl, and not
    > >>> any kernel interfaces for graphichs either. Putting stuff in the kernel
    > >>> won't change that.
    > >>>
    > >>> Note that microsoft does the same thing with its special windows
    > >>> distributions - I can't run directx games on the display of my
    > >>> windows CE GPS navigator - even though I can install
    > >>> third party software there.
    > >>>
    > >>>> That is the _only_ reason why I think it should be in/part of the
    > >>>> kernel. As I said before: Simple decision makers will see a difference
    > >>>> between "Hey, you can port your game using SDL and OpenGL".. or "_Every_
    > >>>> Linux system/distribution has a standard Interface for all needs that
    > >>>> won't change for a long time."
    > >>> You won't ever get gaming support in every distro - precisely
    > >>> because some distros aim specifically for unfit machines like
    > >>> embedded devices. I repeat - opengl is supported in the
    > >>> distros aiming for home use.
    > >>>
    > >>>> They will realize that gaming under Linux
    > >>>> has become _one_ _simple_ problem than a
    > >>>> number_of_dists*different_configurations=number_of_problems problem.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Give them something they can absolutely rely on (no matter which
    > >>>> distribution or configuration) and make them realize that Linux is even
    > >>>> more spread than OS X and they will have $$$ signs in their eyes.
    > >>>>
    > >>> Now you know that it can't happen, and also that the kernel is
    > >>> the wrong place for game compatibility layers. Still, you can aim
    > >>> for a standardized game interface present in all home distros.
    > >>> That is possible. But you can't get it by posting suggestions here.
    > >>> All the people who actually code for linux are able to come
    > >>> up with enough ideas themselves. So nobody is going to
    > >>> put your ideas into code - it don't work that way.
    > >>>
    > >>> Either _you_ code your game interface yourself, or you fund
    > >>> some developers to do it for you. It is that simple. You can
    > >>> of course come here and ask advice about how to do it
    > >>> and what parts will be accepted into the kernel and what parts
    > >>> must stay outside it.
    > >>>
    > >>> This is not the place to post an idea and then expect someone
    > >>> to actually program it. This is the place where you may discuss
    > >>> an idea, and then find out if Linus might accept your patch - or not!
    > >>>
    > >>> Helge Hafting
    > >> Alright. I came to discuss an idea I had because I realized that
    > >> installing Windows and running Linux in VMware is the only _fun_ way to
    > >> play "real" Games and have Linux at the same time.
    > >>
    > >> And everyone who says I'm a troll doesn't like Games or simple things.
    > >
    > > it really seems like you dont know much about development in general.
    > >
    > > first off, sdl havent changed api in long time, atleast nothing that has
    > > broken anything, and secondly, opengl and such ARE a standard, and yes,
    > > opengl require some kernel support, which is there.
    > >
    > > no need to have stuff in the kernel that doesent belong there.
    > >
    > > and there are even more wonderful things, you see, a third party
    > > application(as in, a game) does NOT require stuff like sdl to actually
    > > be installed on the box, or available in the distributions package
    > > repository. you see, there is something called linking, a game vendor
    > > could simply statically link sdl, or dynamically link it, and bundle.
    > > and as for opengl, that is either there, or not. and if its not there,
    > > it would not be anyway, as it wouldnt be supported on the given system.
    > > unless the distribution is NOT meant for things like opengl.
    > >
    > > so in the grand scheme, the things you are suggesting are completely a
    > > wrong solution, and furthermore, a solution to a problem that does not
    > > exist.
    > >
    >
    > If there is no problem with Linux gaming I should shut the hell up and
    > start buying all these Linux games I keep hearing about and seeing in
    > those TV commercials.
    the problem is not on the linux end.
    >
    >
    > Dirk
    >

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