Messages in this thread | | | Date | Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:17:58 -0400 (EDT) | From | "Richard B. Johnson" <> | Subject | Re: non-free firmware in kernel modules, aggregation and unclear copyright notice. |
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On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le mardi 05 avril 2005 ÿÿ 11:50 -0400, Richard B. Johnson a ÿÿcrit : >>>> You are mixing apples and oranges. The fact that the GFDL sucks has >>>> nothing to do with the firmware issue. With the current situation of >>>> firmwares in the kernel, it is illegal to redistribute binary images of >>>> the kernel. Full stop. End of story. Bye bye. Redhat and SuSE may still >>>> be willing to distribute such binary images, but it isn't our problem. >>>> >> >> Wrong! It is perfectly legal in the United States, and I'm pretty >> sure in your country, to distribute or redistribute copyrighted >> works. Otherwise there wouldn't be any bookstores or newspaper >> stands. > > It is not legal to distribute the mix of a GPL software (the Linux > kernel) and a proprietary file (the firmware). I wasn't aware of the > "mere aggregation" interpretation, and I'm probably a bit late to say I > disagree with it - mainly because you'd have a hard time convincing a > court this is the case. > >> There is nothing about firmware that is any different than any >> other component of a product. If the product was legally obtained >> and it requires firmware to run, then there are no special >> considerations about how one inserts the firmware into the >> product. > > Indeed, but that's not what I'm talking about. > >> If you are a GPL-religious-zealot who believes that you are >> supposed to get the technical design (i.e. the software schematics) >> of the hardware device for free so you can copy it, then you are >> going to have to learn something about intellectual property. > > Maybe you should try to understand what people are saying before > teaching them anything. > >> The firmware, in most cases, are the bits generated by a design >> program that creates the function of the device. It's what the >> manufacturer paid 5-10 engineers over a period of a year or so >> to produce. The rest of the design is just some chips you >> can get off-the-shelf. Even if the manufacturer said; "Here you >> are.... You can have the design....". You don't have the >> "compilers" and other stuff necessary to turn this design >> into the firmware unless you planned to steal the design. >> >> So, you either accept the firmware component, thanking the >> manufacturer for it, or you go cry foul someplace else. This >> whole firmware thing is a non-issue, blown way out of >> proportion by people who don't have a clue. > > You are completely missing the point. I don't care whether the firmwares > should be free, or whether they could be free. The fact is they are not > free, and Debian doesn't distribute non-free software in the "main" > archive. The fact is also that mixing them with a GPLed software gives > an result you can't redistribute - although it seems many people > disagree with that assertion now. >
As previously explained, if I buy a screen-card I get a driver that will allow it to run under Windows. If I extract the stuff from that driver that allows me to run it under Linux, that constitutes fair use. Otherwise there are criminal issues like restraint-of-trade and similar problems for the manufacturer. That firmware is free for use on/in the device you purchased.
> Finally, you shouldn't forget that, technically speaking, using hotplug > for uploading the firmware is much more flexible and elegant than > including it in the kernel. Upgrading the firmware and the module should > be two independent operations. People who are advocating the current > situation are refusing technical improvements just because they are > brought by people they find convenient to call "zealots".
Throwing in a bit of truth to a pile of bullshit still leaves the bullshit. It isn't relevant to the issue whether or not upgrading firmware as a separate function from loading a module is "good" or "bad".
> -- > .''`. Josselin Mouette /\./\ > : :' : josselin.mouette@ens-lyon.org > `. `' joss@debian.org > `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom >
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