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    SubjectRe: [PATCH] udev enhancements to use kernel event queue
    Greg KH wrote:
    > On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 03:03:35PM -0700, Andrew Morton wrote:
    > > This is a significantly crappy aspect of the /sbin/hotplug callout. I'd be
    > > very interested in reading an outline of how you propose fixing it, without
    > > waiting until OLS, thanks.
    >
    > Sure, I knew someone would probably want to :)

    An interesting problem, with a lot of potential for wrong
    solutions ;-) A few comments from an interested bystander:

    1) Reordering:

    First of all, it doesn't seem to be clear whether the
    ordering mechanism as a whole is supposed to be reliable.
    E.g. your timeout-based approach would fix reordering with a
    certain probability, but occasionally, reordering would still
    occur. (This is similar to IP networks: a little but of
    reordering is okay, but if you do it a lot, TCP performance
    will suffer.)

    Also, you don't try to correct losses, right ? I.e. if we
    get events A and B, A is lost, then B is handled without any
    attempt to retry A first. Right ?

    If you want a reliable reordering detection, /sbin/hotplug
    needs to know what happens with concurrent events, e.g. if A
    and B occur in parallel, B cannot be executed unless we know
    that A has either succeeded or failed. Sequence numbers alone
    don't help (you could, of course, combine them with timeouts,
    and end up with a more efficent version of your original
    timeout approach).

    You can track concurrent events in a number of ways, e.g. by
    going back to the kernel, and asking how many "older"
    instances of /sbin/hotplug are running, or they could
    communicate directly among each other.

    E.g. the kernel could open a pipe for each /sbin/hotplug, and
    give each /sbin/hotplug a duplicate of the reader end of the
    pipe of each concurrently running /sbin/hotplug.
    /sbin/hotplug could then poll them, and wail until all those
    fds are closed.

    What I don't quite understand is why you won't want to
    serialize in the kernel. The overall resource footprint of
    sleeping /sbin/hotplugs, and such, is certainly much larger
    than a few queued event messages.

    Furthermore, if you serialize in the kernel, you can easily
    and reliably indicate how many events have been lost since
    the last one.


    2) Communication mechanism:

    Given all these complications, I'm not so sure if just
    sending messages (ASCII, EBCDIC, binary, Haiku, whatever ;-)
    wouldn't be more convenient in the end. You could dispatch
    them later to scripts easily enough.

    But since time doesn't seem to be an issue (more about that
    below), you could of course also use the same concept we use
    for interrupts: make /sbin/hotplug a "fast" interface script,
    which then delegates the real work to some other process.

    Given that it's a bit of an uphill battle to write user-space
    programs that absolutely never fail, it may also be good to
    have some completion signal that can be used to keep track of
    dropped events, and that can then be used to trigger a
    recovery procedure.

    A central dispatcher would also have the advantage of
    possessing full information on the events being handled. That
    way, events without interdependencies could still be
    processed in parallel.


    3) We're in no hurry at all:

    Sorry, I don't buy this. You're of course right that bus
    systems that need some slow, timeout-based scan won't
    initialize quickly anyway. But it wouldn't be all that hard
    to make them faster, and then the hotplug interface would
    become the bottleneck.

    Example: put 1000 SCSI drives in a cabinet with a door
    switch. When the door is open, do things in the usual, slow
    way. When the door is closed, no drives can be added or
    removed, so the system could cache bus scan results and
    synthesize NACKs for absent devices.

    So I think it makes sense to avoid obvious bottlenecks in
    this design. Therefore, as long as any kind of serialization
    is required, and unless the kernel itself knows what can be
    parallelized, and what not, a dispatcher demon looks like the
    most light-weight solution.

    If you're worried about having yet another rarely used demon
    in the system, just make /sbin/hotplug persistent. If it is
    idle for too long, it can exit, and when there are new
    events, the kernel can launch it again.


    4) Losses:

    Actually, I'm not so sure what really ought to happen with
    losses. If we have serialization requirements elsewhere,
    proceeding after unrecovered losses would probably mean that
    they're being violated. So if they can be violated then,
    maybe there is some leeway in other circumstances too ?

    On the other hand, if any loss means that major surgery is
    needed, the interface should probably have a "in loss" state,
    in which it just shuts down until someone cleans up the mess.
    Also a partial shutdown may be interesting (e.g. implemented
    by the dispatcher), where events with no interdependencies
    with other events would still be processed.

    The kernel could even provide some hints of what has been
    lost. (I.e. aggregate any information in the lost events.)
    That way, the partial shutdown would be even more efficient.
    But I think I'm overdesining now :-)


    Anyway, just my 2 centavos :-)

    - Werner

    --
    _________________________________________________________________________
    / Werner Almesberger, Buenos Aires, Argentina wa@almesberger.net /
    /_http://www.almesberger.net/____________________________________________/
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