[lkml]   [2003]   [Mar]   [15]   [last100]   RSS Feed
Views: [wrap][no wrap]   [headers]  [forward] 
Messages in this thread
    SubjectRe: [ANNOUNCE] BK->CVS (real time mirror)
    On Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 01:47:10PM -0500, Ben Collins wrote:
    > On Wed, Mar 12, 2003 at 07:38:06PM +0100, Arador wrote:
    > > On Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:16:21 -0500
    > > Ben Collins <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > You've made quite a marketing move. It's obvious to me, maybe not to
    > > > others. By providing this CVS gateway, you make it almost pointless to
    > > > work on an alternative client. Also by providing it, you make it easier
    > >
    > > I don't think so. This also bits Larry. If he does well enought, there'll be
    > > some people here that won't use bitkeeper just because they can use the cvs
    > > gateway and they don't need/miss the features they could get with bk.
    > >
    > > And i don't think it avoids creating a free bk clone. I guess that there's
    > > a lot of people out there interested in such tool, and not only for kernel
    > > development; this won't stop them.
    > >
    > > As far as i can see; Larry is just wasting time (money) to help the kernel
    > > development and people who doesn't use BK just because it isn't free. And
    > > he's not charging me, so i find this a good movement for everybody. I only
    > > can say thanks.
    > You're missing the point. I am not against the CVS->BK gateway. I'm all
    > for it. But it's kind of sour given that he now wants to change the disk
    > format of the repo to make it harder to get the data from it.


    You shouldn't care less of the disk format. You *can't* run bk in the
    first place to reach those files, it's by pure luck that somebody is
    been fine to give away his right to write free software (oh and
    proprietary software too but we don't care :) in the SCM arena and to
    provide this info to you via rsync or whatever proxy or open protocol
    that tytso mentioned is doable.

    Before you can remotely care about the disk format you've to reverse
    engeneer the network protocol first, having more proprietary stuff there
    won't make differences for us. And of course it makes perfect sense for
    Larry to hide the stuff better, but even if he encrypts it, the secret
    key has to be in the bk binary, I mean, it's all in open source assembly
    anyways, if you figured out the network protcol, you shouldn't have an
    order of magnitude more of troubles to figure out the new file format
    too. NOTE: I don't want to discuss the legal details of reading the
    open source assembly, this was only an example ;).

    really, what we care is the data, and what I discussed in the last weeks
    with Larry about the kernel CVS at first sigh seems enough for kernel
    developers, what matters is the _mainline_ evolution. All other trees
    matters much less (and NOTE: all important non mainline trees don't use
    bitkeeper anyways). If getting the changesets with dates will be too
    hard I assume Larry could help on it. Some script should do it pretty
    well thanks to the logical tag in the log. I know it's not the most
    useful format for export but this is reliable, documented and open and
    it makes it trivial to checkout and search the file logs. which makes it
    very usable immediatly w/o the need of new software which is good for us
    kernel developers in the short term. This is a good short/mid term solution.

    IMHO cloning bitkeeper would be an option if Larry would be supporting
    it, but that is obviously not the case.

    There is no point to complain about the change of format of files in the
    Larry has all the rights to change the file format even after you
    reverse engeneered it the first second third fourth time, so all your
    effort will break in seconds. You can spend the rest of your life to
    keep up with Larry and he'll always be ahead of you. We have to do this
    with the SMB protocol because there's no open ""exporter"", but here
    Larry provided the data, and the data belongs to the community in the
    first place so there's no need to slowdown innovation here trying to
    catch up with closed proprietary protocols. And note: if you don't like
    that linux is developed with bk you should speak with Linus not with
    Larry. That is Linus's choice, Larry couldn't make that change.

    If you complain about the file format change, it means you realized
    right now you did a mistake in depending on bk in the first place.

    I think we reached a point of balance here that will solve all the
    collisions. The CVS is a "stability" point. The lack of
    data-availability with CVS or similar open protocol would force us to
    reverse engeneer bk to access the data, and the availability of CVS
    immediatly make us wasting time reverse engeneering bk. Cloning
    bitkeeper is a waste of time if the CVS just exports the data correctly.

    Please focus on this: the only thing we miss is the visibility of the
    jfs tree and similar other bits that aren't even guaranteed to be merged
    in mainline. But that doesn't worry me at all, in one year from now if
    the jfs tree didn't merge correctly it won't matter what was in such
    dead tree.

    If you want to contribute, stop these threads, and start importing CVS
    into a more powerful SCM and let us know an URL where we can access the
    data from there. I will only answer to a working URL, either that or
    live with CVS. The SCM can be evolved over tiem. If this new underground
    domain will be better than bitkeeper than jfs and Linus as well could
    join us in the future. In the meantime CVS will do fine and it
    guarantees the openess of the linux info. As you probably know I don't
    have much time in helping with SCM developement by I can t try give my
    $.02 (or at the very least I want to be still allowed to give my $.02! ;).

    I won't answer further emails about this issue to avoid hurting the l-k
    traffic too much (the last bk threads even made me overlook the BK->CVS
    announcement after a one day and half of email backlog go figure ;).

    And of course many thanks to Larry for the BK->CVS effort! While I think
    it was due, it certainly takes some relevant effort to do it.

    To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
    the body of a message to
    More majordomo info at
    Please read the FAQ at

     \ /
      Last update: 2005-03-22 13:34    [W:0.051 / U:75.264 seconds]
    ©2003-2016 Jasper Spaans. hosted at Digital OceanAdvertise on this site