Messages in this thread |  | | Date | Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:23:04 -0400 | From | Pete Zaitcev <> | Subject | Re: [linux-usb-devel] Re: [BK PATCH] USB changes for 2.5.34 |
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> From: Daniel Phillips <phillips@arcor.de> > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:53:15 +0200
> On Sunday 15 September 2002 08:07, Pete Zaitcev wrote: > > > From: Daniel Phillips <phillips@arcor.de> > > > Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:10:00 +0200 > > > > >[...] > > > Let's try a different show of hands: How many users would be happier if > > > they knew that kernel developers are using modern techniques to improve > > > the quality of the kernel? > > > > I do not see how using a debugger improves a quality of the kernel. > > It improves my quality of life, that would be enough by itself. [...] >[...] > The answer to the question "is this sillyness slowing down development > and reducing the quality of the kernel?" is "yes". I don't have to > speculate about that any more, I've seen it enough with my own eyes. > Now ask yourself who the most productive hackers are today, and ask > yourself if they are using the good ol zen state blunt edged tools.
OK, so you actually do not care about users getting happier. You should have added a smilie to the quote about the show of hands then.
The agrument about your quality of life does hold some water, at least I do not doubt that kdb makes you and Andrew happier. This is a wonderful thing. I do strongly suspect though, that any gains you get on the productivity front are NOT going to be used to improve code quality.
> Look, we tried the zen state thing. It didn't work. Think about the > madness in the period between 2.3 and 2.4, with one oops after another > reported to the list, each taking days or weeks to track down. [...]
This has nothing to do with a debugger, this is a different topic. You actually want a crash dump analyzis tool, and so do I. So, let's discuss that. I happen to get e-mails with oops in USB callbacks pretty often, and they are always useless. It would be possible to track them if off-stack memory was saved, perhaps. However, to expect users to use debugger to collect this off-stack information is a delusion.
This is why Red Hat stopped shipping kdb and started to ship netdump (or so I think, anyway). It is a much more effective tool for the crash analysis, and it can be operated by a user. I think it beats a debugger fair and square. N.B. The data that netdump collects may be an image to be examined by a debugger (such as gdb), together with dedicated analysis tools. That's entirely different debugger, so no hypocrisicy here.
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