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SubjectRe: User vs. Kernel (was: To be smug, or not to be smug, that is , the question)
On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Richard Gooch wrote:

> Jes Sorensen writes:
> > >>>>> "Jon" == Jon M Taylor <taylorj@ecs.csus.edu> writes:
> >
> > Jon> Soon, probably within a year or two, a decent, open-source
> > Jon> next generation OS like Hurd (Microkernel), FluxOS (polymorphic
> > Jon> virtual machines/nested processes), Dolphin (exokernel), The
> > Jon> Cache Kernel, or another NGOS will be developed to the point
> > Jon> where it can step in and cannibalize the guts out of Linux to
> > Jon> produce a fully-functional NGOS which is suitable for mainstream
> > Jon> use. With the Univerity of Utah OSKit having been released, this
> > Jon> process is well underway and accelerating rapidly. At that
> > Jon> point, then, we all can dump 25+ years of accumulated Unix API
> > Jon> brokenness and move on to a clean, modern, well-designed OS.
> >
> > Jon> Linux will then exist only as some sort of NGOS legacy
> > Jon> compatibility wrapper, like WINE, and the real Linux can
> > Jon> gracefully fade away into history, its "springboard" role having
> > Jon> run its course. This is the natural way of things. If you want
> > Jon> to "fix" Unix/Linux, do it right and rework everything ground-up
> > Jon> from first principles. Just MHO of course.
> >
> > Hahahaha, this is clearly the funniest posting on this list this
> > year. It's so funny I just had to print it and put it up on the wall.
>
> Yep, brought a chuckle to me as well.
>
> > John, just one question: if you belive in that rubbish, why on earth
> > do you waste your time on this crap old-fashioned operating system
> > called Linux?
>
> To be fair, he did say Linux was a stepping board. So once one of
> these NGOS's is ready for general use (and doesn't run like a
> one-legged dog in a swamp), he will switch to it. Frankly, I don't see
> that happening in the timeframe he mentions. Sure, there will be a
> public release of such an NGOS, but I suspect it will run slower than
> Linux 2.0. Maybe slower than Linux 1.2.

Most of these NGOSes will be built, in whole or in part, with the
OSKit and hance out of bits of Linux. Of course the glue logic and lack
of special-case optimizations will mean that these NGOSes will be slower
than Linux 2.2, but I'd be surprised if the NGOSes were slower than even
2.0. It would be hard to screw the Linux-based components up *that*
badly. The U of U guys did a really killer job on the OSKit and are
continuing to improve it.

> I recall a quote from Dave Miller a year or two ago, when there was a
> thread about monolithic vs. microkernels. He pointed out that we
> haven't even come to the limits of monolithic kernel design, so
> considering monolithic kernels like Linux as "obsolete" is highly
> premature.

I do not think that blindly adhering to an obsolete design until
the last scrap of performance has been wrung from it when a clearly
superior alternative is available and free is a very wise use of
programmer resources.

> Much later, with 2.2 on the doorstep, I pause and consider his
> words. 2.2 has brought us many performance improvements (networking,
> dcache, SMP).

Few of which are specific to the Unix API, and most of which could
be pilfered for use in an NGOS easily. Exactly why is this relevant?

> It's a great day indeed for those who religiously stick
> to "production" kernels. So, what now? Will kernel development slow to
> a crawl (disregarding driver development)? No way!

I never said it would.

> I see talk of
> future developments (for 2.3) in many areas of the kernel.

So do I. More so than in the past, for sure. That also has
nothing to do with the NGOS-replacing-Linux question.

> If
> anything, activity is even more vigorous that it was back when 2.0 was
> released. That may reflect the increased number of developers that
> have been attracted to Linux.

Sure. Linux is still the place to be. But so is Java, and if you
take a look at what Kaffe+OSKit looks like, it starts to look mighty
attractive as well. A lot of people are pretty impressed with it, myself
included.

> So: you ain't seen nothing yet!

Certainly not.

Jon

---
'Cloning and the reprogramming of DNA is the first serious step in
becoming one with God.'
- Scientist G. Richard Seed


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