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SubjectRe: About the try to remove cross-release feature entirely by Ingo
On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:51:46PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 10:47:36AM +0900, Byungchul Park wrote:
> >
> > (1) The best way: To classify all waiters correctly.
>
> It's really not all waiters, but all *locks*, no?

Thanks for your opinion. I will add my opinion on you.

I meant *waiters*. Locks are only a sub set of potential waiters, which
actually cause deadlocks. Cross-release was designed to consider the
super set including all general waiters such as typical locks,
wait_for_completion(), and lock_page() and so on..

> > Ultimately the problems should be solved in this way. But it
> > takes a lot of time so it's not easy to use the way right away.
> > And I need helps from experts of other sub-systems.
> >
> > While talking about this way, I made a trouble.. I still believe
> > that each sub-system expert knows how to solve dependency problems
> > most, since each has own dependency rule, but it was not about
> > responsibility. I've never wanted to charge someone else it but me.
>
> The problem is that it's not one subsystem, but *many*. And it's the
> interactions between the subsystems.
>
> Consider the example I gave of a network block device, on which a
> local disk file system is mounted, which is then exported over NFS.
> So we have the Networking (TCP) stack involved, the NBD device driver,
> the local disk file system, the NFS file system, and the networking
> stack a second time. That is *many* subsystem maintainers who have to
> get involved.

I admit that it's not simple one to solve..

> In addition, the lock classification system is not documented at all,
> so now you also need someone who understands the lockdep code. And
> since some of these classifications involve transient objects, and
> lockdep doesn't have a way of dealing with transient locks, and has a
> hard compile time limit of the number of locks that it supports, to
> expect a subsystem maintainer to figure out all of the interactions,
> plus figure out lockdep, and work around lockdep's limitations
> seems.... not realistic.

I have to think it more to find out how to solve it simply enough to be
acceptable. The only solution I come up with for now is too complex.

> (By the way, I've tried reading the crosslock and crossrelease
> documentation --- and I'm lost. Sorry, I'm just not smart enough to
> understand how it works, at least not from reading the documentation
> that was in the patch series. And honestly, I don't care. All I do

I am sorry for that. My english is too bad.. I can explain whatever you
wonder if you ask me.

> need is some practical instructions for how to "classify locks
> properly", and how this interacts with lockdep's limitations.)

I see what you consider. As you know, it's not something that I can
solve right away. That's why I suggested (2) or (3)..

> > (2) The 2nd way: To make cross-release off by default.
> >
> > At the beginning, I proposed cross-release being off by default.
> > Honestly, I was happy and did it when Ingo suggested it on by
> > default once lockdep on. But I shouldn't have done that but kept
> > it off by default. Cross-release can make some happy but some
> > unhappy until problems go away through (1) or (2).
^
should be (3)

> Ingo's argument is that (1) is not going to be happening any time
> soon, and in the meantime, code which is turned off will bitrot.

The root cause of the problem is that locks, generally speaking, waiters
are roughly classified. IOW, having the new code with a better
classification is worth, even it would be done later.

> Given that once Lockdep reports a locking violation, it doesn't report
> any more lockdep violations, if there are a large number of false
> positives, people will not want to turn on cross-release, since it
> will report the false positive and then turn itself off, so it won't
> report anything useful. So if no one turns it on because of the false
> positives, how does the bitrot problem get resolved?

The problems come from wrong classification. Waiters either classfied
well or invalidated properly won't bitrot.

> And if the answer is that some small number of lockdep experts will be
> trying to figure out how to do (1) in a tractable way, then Ingo has
> argued it can be handled via an out-of-tree patch.
>
> > (3) The 3rd way: To invalidate waiters making trouble.
>
> Hmm, can we make cross-release and cross-lock off by default on a per
> lock basis? With a well documented to enable it? I'm still not sure

Yes. More precisely speaking, we can make cross-release check off on a
per waiter basis, for example, by using init_completion_nomap() or its
family which I can provide if needed, leaving other traditional lockdep
checking *unchanged*. For that issue we talked about, we could use it in
submit_bio_wait() to invalidate the checking for the waiter.

> how this works given the cross-subsystem problem, though.

It works because the invalidation make lockdep not generate the link
between a set of fs locks on a layer and another set on another layer.

> So if networking enables it because there are no problems with their
> TCP-only test, and then it blows up when someone is doing NBD or NFS
> testing, what's the recourse? The file system developer submitting a
> patch against the networking subsystem to turn off the lockdep
> tracking on that particular lock because it's causing pain for the
> file system developer? I can see that potentially causing all sorts
> of inter-subsystem conflicts.

If it can never be solved anyway, we can invalidate the waiter. What I
want to say is that it's better than nothing, since cross-release would
work and give the benefit in most cases, except that complicated case.

> > Talking about what Ingo said in the commit msg.. I want to ask him back,
> > if he did it with no false positives at the moment merging it in 2006,
> > without using (2) or (3) method. I bet he know what it means.. And
> > classifying locks/waiters correctly is not something uglifying code but
> > a way to document code better. I've felt ill at ease because of the
> > unnatural and forced explanation.
>
> So I think this is the big difference is that potential for
> cross-subsystem false positives is dramatically higher than with
> cross-release compared with the traditional lockdep. And I'm not sure
> there is a clean solution --- how do you "cleanly classify" locks when
> in some cases each object's locks needs to be considered individual
> locks, and when that must not be done lest there is an explosion of
> the number of locks which lockdep needs to track (which is strictly
> limited due to memory and CPU overhead, as I understand things)? I
> haven't seen an explanation for how to solve this in a clean, general
> way --- and I strongly suspect it doesn't exist.

I think this is the main point you want to point out anyway. Couldn't we
why, if we try in one way or another?

For example, we can introduce the concept of group so classes in each
group can be distinguished from another, of course, there might also be
many things to discuss though.

--
Thanks,
Byungchul

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