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    SubjectRe: stable? quality assurance?

    On Jul 12, 2010, at 11:56 AM, David Newall wrote:

    > Thus 2.6.34 is the latest gamma-test kernel. It's not stable and I doubt anybody honestly thinks otherwise.

    Stable is relative. Some people are willing to consider
    Fedora "stable". Other people will only use a RHEL
    kernel, and there are those who are using RHEL 4
    or even RHEL 3 because they are extremely risk-adverse.

    So arguments about whether or not a specific kernel
    version deserves to be called "stable" is going to be
    a waste of time and electrons because it's all about

    But the one huge thing that people are forgetting is that
    the fundamental premise behind open source is "scratch
    your own itch". That means that people who own a
    specific piece of hardware have to collectively be responsible
    for making sure that it works. It's not possible for me to
    assure that some eSATA PCMCIA card on a T23 laptop
    still works, because I don't own the hardware. So the only
    way we know whether or not there is a regression is
    there is *someone* who owns that hardware which is
    willing to try it out, hopefully during -rc3 or -rc4, and let
    us known if there is a problem, and hopefully help us
    debug the problem.

    If you have people saying, "-rc3 isn't stable", I'll wait until
    "-rc5" to test things, then it will be that much later before
    we discover a potential problem with the T23 laptop, and
    before we can fix it. If people say, "" isn't stable,
    I refuse to run a kernel until "", then if they are the
    only person with the T23 eSata device, then we won't hear
    about the problem until, and it might not get fixed
    until or!

    What this means is yes that stable basically means, "stable
    for the core kernel developers". You can say that this isn't
    correct, and maybe even dishonest, but if we wait until 2.6.34.N
    before we call a release "stable", and this discourages users
    from testing 2.6.34.M for M<N, it just delays when bugs will
    be found and fixed.

    This is why to me, arguing that is not "stable" really
    isn't useful. If you really want to frequently update your kernel
    and use the latest and greatest, part of the price that you have
    to pay is to help us with the testing, bug reporting, and root
    cause determination.

    If you don't like this, your other choice is to pay $$$ to the
    folks who provide support for Solaris and OS X, and accept
    the restrictions in hardware implied by Solaris and OS X.
    (Hint: neither supports a Thinkpad T23.) But to compare
    Linux, especially the non-distribution source code distribution
    from with operating systems that have very different
    business models is to really and fundamentally understand
    how things work in the Linux world.

    If you want that kind of stability, then you will need to use an
    older kernel. Or use a distribution kernel which has a support
    and testing and business model compatible with your desires.
    Fedora for example uses kernels which are six months out of
    date, because during those six months, the people who use the
    testing versions of Fedora are doing testing and helping with
    the bug fixing. Red Hat uses this free testing pool to improve
    the testing and stability of Red Hat Enterprise Linux, so if you
    are willing to live with a 2-3 year release cycle, RHEL will be
    more stable than Fedora. And if you need to make sure that
    bugs are fixed very quickly, and you can call and demand
    a developer's attention, you can pay $$$ for a support contract.

    I will say once again. There is no such thing as a free lunch.
    Linux is a better deal than most, and you have multiple
    choices about how frequently you update, whether you let
    someone else decide whether or not a particular kernel
    release plus patches is "stable", or more accurately,
    "stable enough", and you can choose how much you are willing
    to pay, either in personal time and effort, or $$$ to some support

    But demanding that become "more stable" when it
    is supported by purely volunteers is simply not reasonable.

    -- Ted

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