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    SubjectRe: This is [Re:] How to improve the quality of the kernel[?].

    On Tue, 19 Jun 2007, Adrian Bunk wrote:
    > The goal is to get all patches for a maintained subsystem submitted to
    > Linus by the maintainer.

    Well, to be honest, I've actually over the years tried to have a policy of
    *never* really having black-and-white policies.

    The fact is, some maintainers are excellent. All the relevant patches
    *already* effectively go through them.

    But at the same time, other maintainers are less than active, and some
    areas aren't clearly maintained at all.

    Also, being a maintainer often means that you are busy and spend a lot of
    time talking to *people* - it doesn't necessarily mean that you actually
    have the hardware and can test things, nor does it necessarily mean that
    you know every detail.

    So I point out in Documentation/ManagementStyle (which is written very
    much tongue-in-cheek, but at the same time it's really *true*) that
    maintainership is often about recognizing people who just know *better*
    than you!

    > The -mm kernel already implements what your proposed PTS would do.
    > Plus it gives testers more or less all patches currently pending
    > inclusion into Linus' tree in one kernel they can test.
    > The problem are more social problems like patches Andrew has never heard
    > of before getting into Linus' tree during the merge window.

    Not really. The "problem" boils down to this:

    [torvalds@woody linux]$ git-rev-list --all --since=100.days.ago | wc -l
    [torvalds@woody linux]$ git-rev-list --no-merges --all --since=100.days.ago | wc -l

    ie over the last hundred days, we have averaged over 70 changes per day,
    and even ignoring merges and only looking at "pure patches" we have more
    than an average of 65 patches per day. Every day. Day in and day out.

    That translates to five hundred commits a week, two _thousand_ commits per
    month, and 25 thousand commits per year. As a fairly constant stream.

    Will mistakes happen? Hell *yes*.

    And I'd argue that any flow that tries to "guarantee" that mistakes don't
    happen is broken. It's a sure-fire way to just frustrate people, simply
    because it assumes a level of perfection in maintainers and developers
    that isn't possible.

    The accepted industry standard for bug counts is basically one bug per a
    thousand lines of code. And that's for released, *debugged* code.

    Yes, we should aim higher. Obviously. Let's say that we aim for 0.1 bugs
    per KLOC, and that we actually aim for that not just in _released_ code,
    but in patches.

    What does that mean?

    Do the math:

    git log -M -p --all --since=100.days.ago | grep '^+' | wc -l

    That basically takes the last one hundred days of development, shows it
    all as patches, and just counts the "new" lines. It takes about ten
    seconds to run, and returns 517252 for me right now.

    That's *over*half*a*million* lines added or changed!

    And even with the expectation that we do ten times better than what is
    often quoted as an industry average, and even with the expectation that
    this is already fully debugged code, that's at least 50 bugs in the last
    one hundred days.

    Yeah, we can be even more stringent, and actually subtract the number of
    lines _removed_ (274930), and assume that only *new* code contains bugs,
    and that's still just under a quarter million purely *added* lines, and
    maybe we'd expect just new 24 bugs in the last 100 days.

    [ Argument: some of the old code also contained bugs, so the lines added
    to replace it balance out. Counter-argument: new code is less well
    tested by *definition* than old code, so.. Counter-counter-argument: the
    new code was often added to _fix_ a bug, so the code removed had an even
    _higher_ bug rate than normal code..

    End result? We don't know. This is all just food for thought. ]

    So here's the deal: even by the most *stringent* reasonable rules, we add
    a new bug every four days. That's just something that people need to
    accept. The people who say "we must never introduce a regression" aren't
    living on planet earth, they are living in some wonderful world of
    Blarney, where mistakes don't happen, developers are perfect, hardware is
    perfect, and maintainers always catch things.

    > The problem is that most problems don't occur on one well-defined
    > kind of hardware - patches often break in exactly the areas the patch
    > author expected no problems in.

    Note that the industry-standard 1-bug-per-kloc thing has nothing to do
    with hardware. Somebody earlier in this thread (or one of the related
    ones) said that "git bisect is only valid for bugs that happen due to
    hardware issues", which is just totally *ludicrous*.

    Yes, hardware makes it harder to test, but even *without* any hardware-
    specific issues, bugs happen. The developer just didn't happen to trigger
    the condition, or didn't happen to notice it when he *did* trigger it.

    So don't go overboard about "hardware". Yes, hardware-specific issues have
    their own set of problems, and yes, drivers have a much higher incidence
    of bugs per KLOC, but in the end, even *without* that, you'd still have to
    face the music. Even for stuff that isn't drivers.

    So this whole *notion* that you can get it right the first time is

    We should aim for doing well, yes.

    But quite frankly, anybody who aims for "perfect" without taking reality
    into account is just not realistic. And if that's part of the goal of some
    "new process", then I'm not even interested in listening to people discuss

    If this plan cannot take reality into account, please stop Cc'ing me. I'm
    simply not interested.

    Any process that tries to "guarantee" that regressions don't happen is
    crap. Any process that tries to "guarantee" that we release only kernels
    without bugs can go screw itself. There's one thing I _can_ guarantee, and
    that's as long as we add a quarter million new lines per 100 days (and
    change another quarter million lines), we will have new bugs.

    No ifs, buts or maybe's about it.

    The process should aim for making them *fewer*. But any process that aims
    for total eradication of new bugs will result in one thing, and one thign
    only: we won't be getting any actual work done.

    The only way to guarantee no regressions is to make no progress.

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