[lkml]   [2007]   [Mar]   [9]   [last100]   RSS Feed
Views: [wrap][no wrap]   [headers]  [forward] 
Messages in this thread
    SubjectRe: sys_write() racy for multi-threaded append?
    On Fri, Mar 09, 2007 at 04:19:55AM -0800, Michael K. Edwards wrote:
    > On 3/8/07, Benjamin LaHaise <> wrote:
    > >Any number of things can cause a short write to occur, and rewinding the
    > >file position after the fact is just as bad. A sane app has to either
    > >serialise the writes itself or use a thread safe API like pwrite().
    > Not on a pipe/FIFO. Short writes there are flat out verboten by
    > 1003.1 unless O_NONBLOCK is set. (Not that f_pos is interesting on a
    > pipe except as a "bytes sent" indicator -- and in the multi-threaded
    > scenario, if you do the speculative update that I'm suggesting, you
    > can't 100% trust it unless you ensure that you are not in
    > mid-read/write in some other thread at the moment you sample f_pos.
    > But that doesn't make it useless.)

    Writes to a pipe/FIFO are atomic, so long as they fit within the pipe buffer
    size, while f_pos on a pipe is undefined -- what exactly is the issue here?
    The semantics you're assuming are not defined by POSIX. Heck, even looking
    at a man page for one of the *BSDs states "Some devices are incapable of
    seeking. The value of the pointer associated with such a device is
    undefined." What part of undefined is problematic?

    > As to what a "sane app" has to do: it's just not that unusual to write
    > application code that treats a short read/write as a catastrophic
    > error, especially when the fd is of a type that is known never to
    > produce a short read/write unless something is drastically wrong. For
    > instance, I bomb on short write in audio applications where the driver
    > is known to block until enough bytes have been read/written, period.
    > When switching from reading a stream of audio frames from thread A to
    > reading them from thread B, I may be willing to omit app
    > serialization, because I can tolerate an imperfect hand-off in which
    > thread A steals one last frame after thread B has started reading --
    > as long as the fd doesn't get screwed up. There is no reason for the
    > generic sys_read code to leave a race open in which the same frame is
    > read by both threads and a hardware buffer overrun results later.

    I hope I don't have to run any of your software. Short writes can and do
    happen because of a variety of reasons: signals, memory allocation failures,
    quota being exceeded.... These are all error conditions the kernel has to
    provide well defined semantics for, as well behaved applications will try
    to handle them gracefully.

    > In short, I'm not proposing that the kernel perfectly serialize
    > concurrent reads and writes to arbitrary fd types. I'm proposing that
    > it not do something blatantly stupid and easily avoided in generic
    > code that makes it impossible for any fd type to guarantee that, after
    > 10 successful pipelined 100-byte reads or writes, f_pos will have
    > advanced by 1000.

    The semantics you're looking for are defined for regular files with
    O_APPEND. Anything else is asking for synchronization that other
    applications do not require and do not desire.

    "Time is of no importance, Mr. President, only life is important."
    Don't Email: <>.
    To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
    the body of a message to
    More majordomo info at
    Please read the FAQ at

     \ /
      Last update: 2007-03-09 16:01    [W:0.025 / U:4.248 seconds]
    ©2003-2016 Jasper Spaans. hosted at Digital OceanAdvertise on this site