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    SubjectRe: [Lse-tech] Re: RFC: patch to allow lock-free traversal of lists with insertion

    > > true for older alphas, especially because they are strictly in-order
    > > machines, unlike ev6.
    > Yes, it sounds strange. However According to Paul this would not be the
    > cpu but a cache coherency issue. rmb() would enforce the cache coherency
    > etc... so maybe the issue is related to old SMP motherboard etc... not
    > even to the cpus ... dunno. But as said it sounded very strange that
    > also new chips and new boards have such a weird reodering trouble.

    It sounded strange to me, too. ;-) And my first reading of the
    Alpha AXP Archtecture RM didn't help me much.

    It was indeed a cache coherency issue. The architect I talked to felt
    that it was a feature rather than a bug. I have an email in to him.
    In the meantime, Compaq's patent #6,108,737 leads me to believe that
    others in DEC/Compaq also believe it to be a feature. The paragraph
    starting at column 2 line 20 of the body of this patent states:

    In a weakly-ordered system, an order is imposed between selected
    sets of memory reference operations, while other operations are
    considered unordered. One or more MB instructions are used to
    indicate the required order. In the case of an MB instruction
    defined by the Alpha (R) 21264 processor instruction set, the MB
    denotes that all memory reference instructions above the MB (i.e.,
    pre-MB instructions) are ordered before all reference instructions
    after the MB (i.e., post-MB instructions). However, no order
    is required between reference instructions that are not separated
    by an MB.

    (The patent talks about the WMB instruction later on.)

    In other words, if there is no MB, the CPU is not required to maintain
    ordering. Regardless of data dependencies or anything else.

    There is also an application note at

    which states:

    For instance, your producer must issue a "memory barrier" instruction
    after writing the data to shared memory and before inserting it on
    the queue; likewise, your consumer must issue a memory barrier
    instruction after removing an item from the queue and before reading
    from its memory. Otherwise, you risk seeing stale data, since,
    while the Alpha processor does provide coherent memory, it does
    not provide implicit ordering of reads and writes. (That is, the
    write of the producer's data might reach memory after the write of
    the queue, such that the consumer might read the new item from the
    queue but get the previous values from the item's memory.

    Note that they require a memory barrier (rmb()) between the time the
    item is removed from the queue and the time that the data in the item
    is referenced, despite the fact that there is a data dependency between
    the dequeueing and the dereferencing. So, again, data dependency does
    -not- substitute for an MB on Alpha.

    Comments from DEC/Compaq people who know Alpha architecture details?

    Thanx, Paul

    > > I suspect some confusion here - probably that architect meant loads
    > > to independent addresses. Of course, in this case mb() is required
    > > to assure ordering.
    > >
    > > Ivan.
    > Andrea

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