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SubjectRe: [Semi-OT,important] ORBS globally blocks users of these lists
On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Khimenko Victor wrote:

> Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 04:53:03 +0300 (MSK)
> From: Khimenko Victor <>
> To:,
> Cc:,
> Subject: Re: [Semi-OT,important] ORBS globally blocks users of these lists
> In <> Blu3Viper ( wrote:
> B> On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Khimenko Victor wrote:
> >> > No. The policy is not needed. It is needed that you can track down
> >> > spammers and make them pay, and you can track open relay and have them
> >> > pay as well, since they helped the spammer.
> >>
> >> You understood that it's not possible, right ? The only way to make someone
> >> pay here (in Russia) is come to him with big gun - it's almost impossible to
> >> do via court even in FAR more obvious situations. And Russia is not the only
> >> such place in the world.
> >>
> >> In ideal world ORBS is not needed and perhaps even amoral. Unfortunatelly we
> >> do not live in ideal world :-(
> B> Should we then blacklist all .ru email because nothing else can be done in
> B> recourse to any spam originating from there?
> If you do not need Kuznetsov's networking fixes, Savochkin's changed drivers
> and so on you are free to do this.
> B> Sound pretty drastic? It's not too far off the netblock blacklist policy.
> Hmm. It's far easier to change ISP (especially in US where exist far more
> then one ISP) then to change country. But yes, difference is not that big.
> Feel free to start OCBL (Offensive Countries Black List) if you wish (perhaps
> there are alredy exist one). I'm not sure if vger will use your list though...
> P.S. It's my last mail on subject. Arguments are repeating itself and I'll not
> see something REALLY new I'll not reply. Since DaveM and Matti made their
> feelings clear and will not change their mind without new FACTS this discussion
> does not belond to l-k anymore.

ORBS's policy is completely OT.

Facts are simple:
1) if the list blocks relays that are listed as ok on ORBS, that's a bug.
Still OT, since it's a job for our wonderful list administrators.
2) If they don't fix it, because they can't, they need help.
3) If they don't fix it because they don't want, they should say why.
4) If they say they don't fix it because they blindly believe and follow
what ORBS has to say (even with broken examples) on it, they're not
so wonderful... B-)

I haven't seen 4) yet. Only after 4) a thread can be started on the topic,
i think. Yet I'm not expecting to see 4).


General ideas:

1) If you fell that an host that uses ORBS blocked you even if your relay
is ok, and listed as such in ORBS, JUST REPORT THE BUG to the host mail
adminstrator. If vger has such a bug, report it to list admins.

2) On the other side, you don't put people in jail just because they CAN
DO something illegal. That's a fascist idea: you have to prove yourself
innocent if you want to be let alone.
Mail exchangers are not persons. But there are persons behind them, and
by blocking MXes you hit on their job. Following the same rule, you should
not block open relays just because they can be used by spammers. You just
block those that have been used to deliver SPAM. This is possible. It
won't stop all the SPAMming, as putting a few people in jail just does not
prevent others in being outlaws. Please note that putting everybody in jail
WILL DO, expecially if you have lists of "non-compliant" persons.

I'm not using ORBS. Just as i think that having one innocent jailed is
much worse that having ten guilty guys free, i think that receiving 10 SPAM
messages is better that blocking just 1 legitimate one.

That's my choice. And i accept other choices made by others.
But i must say that the day i find my mail blocked just because
my provider's relay (which i don't use) is open, or filters ORBS bot,
and i know my relay is listed as ok, i'll get mad on it.


____/ ____/ /
/ / / Marco Colombo
___/ ___ / / Technical Manager
/ / / ESI s.r.l.
_____/ _____/ _/

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