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SubjectRe: [Semi-OT,important] ORBS globally blocks users of these lists
On Mon, 17 Jan 2000, Khimenko Victor wrote:

> > You missed my qualifier. I asked that ORBS not be used while they practice
> > their policy of global blacklisting. I fully support ORBS in it's efforts
> > to stop spam by affecting the broken systems. Any servers on Above.net
> > address space that are open should be listed. The other hundreds of
> > thousands should remain fully free.
>
> It's not possible since ABOVE.NET choose to block ORBS. If systems @ ABOVE.NET
> are blacklisted it's ABOVE.NET fault, not ORBS fault.

Yes it is possible. Above.net is -NOT- blocking ORBS from their entire
address space, only select space. ORBS chooses to blacklist all the
above.net space which makes it the fault of ORBS when they decree everyone
should suffer the punishment instead of the selected block.

> > Especially when the ones I touch are listed in the database as anti-spam
> > compliant.
>
> Hmm. Since that server is blocked spammer can mark it as "anti-spam compliant"
> as well. ORBS bot can not check it.

NO. The server is -not- blocked. ALL of the VA servers are fully
probeable.

Read again what I wrote. In specific, mail.linux.com has been probed by
ORBS and is listed as compliant. The ORBS probe HAS checked it and it IS
anti-spam but it is STILL blacklisted because another section of above.net
is blocking ORBS.


> > I draw the line when they shoot the whole city just to stop a dozen people.
>
> Not dozen peoples. Just city's head. And they DO NOT SHOOT them. They just
> refuse to speak with them till policy is not changed. It's what US goverment
> is doing all the time: "we will not speak with you till you'll do this and
> that". If it's Ok for US goverment why it's not Ok for ORBS ?

No, ALL people in the above.net address space are equally affected. NOT
just the above.net servers.

> > anyone for other people's problems. I'm saying ORBS is practicing a group
> > prejudice.
>
> Just like US goverment (and most other goverments out there :-)...

If you are a US citizen, you have the right to vote and affect legislation.

It's not a problem until it's your problem?

> They can blame existing one. If they will complaing loud enough provider can
> change his mind. They can ask someone to work as ORBS-allowed relay for him
> (if my friend will ask me to work as relay I'll give him key and allow SMTP
> over SSL for him so he'll be able to send mail even if his provider is blocked
> by ORBS).
>
> > That anti-spam abiding citizen shouldn't have to face the blacklist because
> > his provider has blocked ORBS from testing.
>
> Why so ? They are the ones who support provider by his money. They are the ones
> who can ask him to change his mind. ORBS can not do this. But ORBS CAN blacklist
> that provider and they done that.

Someone in your neighborhood refuses to allow the nazi police to come into
their home and inspect for utility compliance. Therefore, the utilities for
your neighborhood will be shut off.

> > My mail server XYZ is anti-spam compliant and listed as such in the ORBS
> > database, why then is it being blacklisted?
>
> If it's can not be checked by ORBS bot than it's Ok: ORBS can not check if
> someone who marked it as "anti-spam compliant" is not spammer and can not check
> itself. If not, then it's definiteally something wrong.

Ok, I've said this in one of every two emails I've sent on this subject, one
more time:

OUR SERVERS HAVE BEEN PROBED BY ORBS AND LISTED 'OK'

THE ENIRE ABOVE.NET ADDRESS SPACE IS NOT FIREWALLING ORBS.

> > Is generic blacklisting right?
>
> If there are no choice then yes.

There is a choice. Blacklist the "100 or so" mail servers that ORBS has
found open. And that is from the mouth of ORBS.

The short and simple is this: ORBS is being blocked from a group of servers
on above.net, therefore ORBS has decreed that ALL address space SWIPed by
above.net be blacklisted.

Now, since we invented automation and have this automated probe capability,
should ORBS blacklist several class B networks or should they blacklist the
individual machines?

-d


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