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    SubjectRe: vger rejecting messages from mediaone (ORBS is evil)
    I'll go with 2)  Probing is always OK (unless it becomes a
    denial of service). That's why we have crack, et al.

    The web will be a better place if the good guys "check the
    doors" extensively. Otherwise, you're relying on a variant
    of security by obscurity.

    Other possible bumper stickers...

    If probing is outlawed, only the outlaws will have probes.

    If you don't want probes, keep off the net.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "David Schwartz" <>
    To: "Jeff Millar" <>; "George Bonser"
    <>; "Khimenko Victor" <>
    Cc: <>
    Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 8:35 PM
    Subject: RE: vger rejecting messages from mediaone (ORBS is evil)

    > > A very convincing line of argument, _if_ you assume that a mail
    > > probe of a net service constitutes a search. It's closer
    > > to looking a public behavior than an invasive search.
    > The best analogy I can think of is that it's like twisting and pushing on
    > someone's door to see if it's locked. The problem is really that you only
    > have three choices:
    > 1) A probe for a vulnerability is wrong no matter what. This makes ORBS
    > immoral.
    > 2) A probe for a vulnerability is okay. This makes probing completely
    > justified and makes it very hard to deal with people who probe for
    > vulnerabilities in order to exploit them.
    > 3) A probe for a vulnerability is okay or not okay depending upon a
    > of factors including what the prober did or intended to do with the
    > and what the effect of the probe is on the probed site.
    > Unfortunately, it pretty much has to be the third option.
    > DS

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